Low turnouts

[Kartgraphix]

Geez What a downer/depressing thread.

Take a look at member numbers in the various classes - I mean the member's SCCA number. Since they are sequential, it's easy to see where newcomers to the sport are going. Look at Cendiv Points standings over the last 2 seasons... I have the highest member number this year so far, as was the case last year. That means that there is nobody in the Cendiv National points who entered the SCCA since November 2005. That's approaching three years with no new entries, into what is supposed to be an antry level class? Formula Mazda had 5 in 07 who entered later than me, in a smaller class. 2 of 6 in FSCCA, 2 in FF, SM only three?, none in SRF? Granted this is at the National level, and statistically, there will always be a larger population as the numbers go down in sequence. However, that does not cover the reality that the number of fresh entries at the National level is very weak.

At the last National race, I has the distinction of having the newest membership number, the least number of years (and fewest total races experienced) AND the oldest car on the grid! Hey, ya gotta take something away from every weekend (beyond improving my PB at the track on the first day in the car since last season.)!

See ya at the Sprints. I'll be the blue car improving where I can and having as much fun as anyone else.

[problemchild]

You thought that was depressing ....
Bill Steele had these interesting comments to make on the Apexspeed site ....
(I liked the part about deck chairs on the Titanic)

The future of "National" racing.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

While I don’t think the idea of a customer loyalty program that gives preferences to return racers is a very good idea, I do think SCCA National is trying everything they can to stem a very disturbing trend. The fact is the club, at least at the national level, is in a jam.

I believe it is a combination of a lot of factors that has led the club to where it is today.

The first problem we face is a system of governance that is largely dictated by the club’s structure. The chance that the club will be well managed at the national level given its “club” structure is pretty remote. The irony here is the club can be managed very well at a local level, I have seen it here in the SF Region. The problem is once you get out of a local setting where the feedback for decision making is personal and face to face, things seem to degrade significantly.

The second problem we have is demographic. Many have already posted the fact that most young people don’t share the same interests or have the same historical perspective as the average rank and file grey beard SCCA member. Kids rarely work on their own cars and the ones that do (like the tuner crowd) are not interested in following in their parents footsteps with Road Racing and Autocrossing but instead elect to create their own “X-Games” with drifting, etc. Add to that every single newspaper and TV news program in the country screaming about the death of Mother Nature at the hands of fossil fuel burning cars and more and more kids are being turned off to cars in general. The fact is fewer kids these days think in terms of the car as being “cool".

The third problem we have is the price of a blue barrel of oil and the fact that the world wide competition for oil based products is going nowhere but up, meaning the cost of fuel is no longer an insignificant element in the overall cost of racing. When your tow vehicle gets single digits gas mileage, the choice of staying local and racing a regional schedule (where you might actually get more competition, at least in a region like the SF Region), versus traveling all over the Division (or further), well that decision starts to become a serious one.

Frankly, given the above headwinds, I do not see how SCCA can survive in its present form. The demographics are not going to get better, the price of oil is not going back to $20/bbl and the club’s political structure and leadership is not going to get a lot better. I do believe at the local level the club can survive and maybe even flourish. The SF Region is an example of what I see might be the future of SCCA, if there is any future at all for the club.

In the SF Region’s case we do have a number of things going for us. We are blessed with three local tracks that are all world class in their own way. We have a pretty vibrant local economy where more that a handful of people have significant disposable incomes (albeit maybe a little less today than a few years ago, but still pretty good). The region’s leadership is excellent and the racing in many classes is close and deep.

So that is what I see is the future for SCCA. Local clubs, some very healthy like the SF Region, others less so. At the national level, and for events like the Runoff’s, etc. I really don’t see a future, at least a future that is anything but a slow decline into complete irrelevance.

Getting back on track "thread wise", when I look at the problems posed by the latest misstep of a customer rewards program by SCCA national I have to say, it resembles more and more the rearranging of deck chairs on the Titanic. The truth of the matter is the club’s problems are a lot bigger than a ham fisted customer loyalty program.

[brian]

Although well written and most of the issues are well covered, Mr. Steele and I disagree with the assessment regarding SF region management. SF region has the highest entry fees in the country so there is little doubt about resources. Problem is the boad is unwilling to share the finanacial details with it's memberships in spite of the significant reserves. It is true that the regional program is doing better than some regions but as he mentioned, our economy is doing much better than most parts of the country. With the exception of SM and IT most of our groups are showing lower entries. To protect the entry count in SM the board recently announced a $25,000 purse. The source of this purse is not entirely known but it is widely held that the other classes are putting up some of the money.

[hardingfv32-1]

Bill Steele's analysis is spot on.....things are changing. Don't waste time comparing the past with the future. Make the most of the new landscape. The National racing program is waning, is that really a sign of the end of club racing? Is there still a need for a National race program? Our club officials are doing fine under the current conditions.

Brian
If investing in a purse for a group of races provides the club with a net revenue gain, then this is a wise business decision. This seems like a viable experiment. The other classes are not putting up the money, the whole club is.

Brian

[Dave]

Not helping matters, I heard a rumor that Ohio will be enforcing the age limit on drivers. Like New York drivers will have to be 18 to race in the state.

Dave

[clubford00]

Racing for a purse might be a good idea , but just beware that entry fees would most likely doubl at the least!

[Mystique Racing]

In my opinion, racing for $$ is a bad idea, especially in formula cars at the club level. Every time I have been involved in a $$ race a couple of drivers turn into idiots and start taking to many risks, eventually taking themselves along with other drivers out of the race.

[jgaither]

"In my opinion, racing for $$ is a bad idea, especially in formula cars at the club level."

Amen to that! My few forays into racing for money taught me that people will spend 2 to 4 times as much to race for a paltry purse as they will for a trophy.

At Grand Prix Greensboro we have resisted invitations to race for money over and over again. When $$ are on the line, it gets too serious too fast. Our racng leagues are competitive enough as is!

Now for the exception that proves the rule: In 1975 I organized 2 money races for FV's on the same weekend at oval tracks in NC. Ned Jarrett (Dale's also famous father) always did something different for the fans on July 4 weekend at Hickory Motor Speedway. I went to him and asked about an FV race. I didn't even expect him to say yes, much less offer a purse, but he did! Ned told me to make up the rules and invite the drivers. We had an amazing response and about 25 cars showed up for the Saturday night fights - er- race. Since so many were coming we added another race for Friday night at New Asheville Speedway. That one got rained out and run the following weekend.

The fans loved us! We used my '74 911 Carrera for the pace car. Jeff Carlin won it driving the Ringwraith (which was just recently restored) and I still have a photo that he sent to Mike Jackson showing him squeezing the track queen in victory lane. Classic Carlin. I managed to win the rain delayed one in Asheville the following weekend. It was a very small field since all the travelers had gone home. Jim Brookshire had it won & got into the marbles towards the end. We drank up the winnings anyway before we left town so it didn't matter who won.

These 2 races were one-off's, so the money didn't really pollute the fun we had. A series would have made it much different.

jg

[Kartgraphix]

In my opinion, racing for $$ is a bad idea, especially in formula cars at the club level. Every time I have been involved in a $$ race a couple of drivers turn into idiots and start taking to many risks, eventually taking themselves along with other drivers out of the race.

I built circle track motors for a $1,500 claimer class, that cost over $6,000, based on the potential of winning a purse of $500. Purses do silly things to even the best of competitors, from taking larger risks in passing, new and specially prepped tires every race, hot fuels, to outright cheating that bordered on criminal. Just on fuel alone, a purse of $500 would pay for the difference between regular expensive race gas and the doped up go-juice.

Racing for $$ would increase costs everywhere to everyone, and would shrink turnouts, not build them.

Interesting observation: At this weekend's June Sprints, several really expensive classes were larger than FV (15), like GT1 (28), FA (25), and FC (20). On the far-out end of the spectrum were SRF fielding over 80+ cars, and SM another billion or so... Not sure what all this means, other than to indicate that costs alone don't a poor class turnout make.

[FV80]

IMHO - poor FV turnouts relative to other classes are indicative of the 'cheapness' of FV'rs We pinch the penny more than any other class, and when fuel prices and entry fees are what they are, FV seems to feel the most heat from it. Personally, I think all the other classes should get together and help to 'preserve' FV by paying our tow gas bills. If I had gone to the Sprints, my tow fuel bill would have almost equaled that of my full season of racing (towing) from last year - including the Runoffs !!

[cendiv37]

I tend to agree with Steve's opinion. Most FV guys I know are very cost conscious. We all love the class, and the competition, and the comradary, but the low cost is very important component in why we choose to race the cars we do.

You might think of FV as the "canary" of SCCA road racing regarding the effect of economic issues.

[SR Racing]

From a retailer/builder standpoint. It is clearly the "low cost" classes that are slowing down their expenditures. Our HANS sales, V8 sales and purchases for the more expensive classes, haven't changed a bit (and in some cases has increased. But the Vee stuff has slowed down. When travel and fuel costs become the significant part of your racing budget this makes sense.

Jim

[clubford00]

It stands to reason, most vee drivers are the un sponsored family budget plan type racers. The last 15 months for my buisness , have been the worst for me in the 20 years i have been doing it. I use my personal car for work and drive anywhere from 80 to 250 miles per day, and the gas is rediculous. Unfortunaletly i cant pull the trailer with my prius. When times are tough as they are for all of us, we cut out the "Fun" stuff and try and just pay the bills. (Damn Priorities) The Formula Atlantic driver or the big Corvette boys are the corporate types and gas prices and entry fees going up is in already planned into their buisness' budget for the next year. And most have big sponsorships for their big cars. Must be nice to be rich.

[butchdeer]

Racing for money onley makes sence if the money is coming from some source other than the competitors pockets. FV guys have never been impressed by money as exhibited in the many years the Pro Vee(Valvoline) series struggled for entries and only worked were national poiunts were also given. For years FV has been the biggest or one of the biggest classes at the run offs. For any that have participated in one you know that this is the most expensive race on the schedule. Half my yearly budget when I did it as a driver or entrant. Even the Formula Atlantic guys don't go in significant numbers yet Vee guys cant wait to attend while leaving many regionals close to home with ever lower fields.
As far as people losing all common sence when a few $$ are on the line I don't believe it. Competition is what makes racing fun and people who are competitive are not motivated by $$ but buy the thrill of being in front. Rick Mears once said he drove harder in a regional FV than at the Indy 500. I believe he did this because he was competitive not because the $$ were there as a motivator. If he was not competitive for a trophy he never would have been as sucessful as he was in the $$ races.
Butch

[SR Racing]

I think Butch is correct. I don't anyone has a thought of the money in their minds when they are looking for a pass on the last lap. Certainly not the small money that Vee guys ever got or would get. It is simply the competitive spirit. In some of the Pro-Vee races where there were incidents, it was probably caused by racing on a different track that drivers weren't as familiar with or that didn't lend themselves to Vee's. (IRP, as an example)

That being said, I don't think $ in itself would motivate many more drivers to atttend. (Unless it was BIG money )

Jim

[Deacon Blues]

I have raced vees for years and am sitting this year out. My main reason was that the fields were getting low and the fun factor just wasn't there. It didn't help that the towing cost and entry cost has gone way up and the track time has not. I started doing track days on motorcycles and have missed the freinds I have made at the track but really haven't missed the SCCA.

For the fun / $ I think the motorcycle croud has done some things a bit better. While not a competition you get tons of track time. A track day at Mid-ohio costs less than $200. For that you get 7 20 minute sessions. I can get 4 - 5 track days out of a set of tires. The bike is practically maintenance free. I have a 150lb trailer that I can tow with my mazda 3 getting 25MPG towing. The track days are run by a business and not a club. Some of the good things is they treat you like a customer. Tech inspection is strictly about if the bike is safe, no tech nazis. No physicals to worry about. The worst part is that events actually sell out. I can't do mid ohio this month because I didn't sign up fast enough. The event sold out almost a month in advance. I miss the actual competition aspect but there are always people to play with since there are differeng skill levels and the thrill of 150MPH on the back straight kind of makes up for the lack of a competitive race.

Some of what the bikes do that I think SCCA could do better from. Most track days are on week days. One event on a weekend had go carts in the morning, bikes in the afternoon. For that we only got 6 20 minute sessions, but I think the cost was about $150. Since it is not a true race there are only 3 groups based on ability which keeps the track time up. One of the groups at every event is a novice class that is a school for the same price as any other event. This keeps new people coming in.

I do miss the Vee crowd but right now I can run for less than half the cost and have just as much fun, which is why I was in Vees in the first place.

I am right now on the fence of selling the vee or seing if I want to try it again. Maybe a year off will make me miss it enough to go back.

Steve Batcha

[Kartgraphix]

I started doing track days ... While not a competition you get tons of track time...

My first move into motorsports was BMW CCA, Road One, and other track days in various cars. It'ts fun, and yes, you get a load of track time for less. It's also a lot less stressful for equipment work, since goign faster is a matter of preference and has nothing to do with competition at all. NASA has a cross-over level where track days are timed in the top two run groups, so improving one's personal best comes into play. I also played in Auto-X some, then went to play with go-karts. I didn't race the kart until the third season, after two years of taking advantage of $20 track days and all the laps you can stand (Best bang for the buck - we'd run 100 laps a day on practice days at the kart track! That is a ton of time on a kart.)

What I ran into, head on, was one day it all started feeling like driving in circles with no real purpose. I was passing a lot of people by then and not being passed by anyone anymore... Fun, sure... but less and less with each visit to the track. I also got bored with the parades some of the schools turn into, and the fact that the wear on the cars were as bad as racing, worse actually, since we were getting in more laps than a race weekend.

Some days I don't want to race at all. The stress and effort, the whole need to have the car sorted, and the struggle to improve lap times to just make one more position... some days it's more than I am interested in. Some days I want it all to be out of mmy garage and life. Other days, it's the only thing that keeps me in the sport. Without the racing aspect, keeping the license current, and the effort of improving each time out, against others more than willing to show where we are weak, adds a dimension to the whole effort. It's no longer just driving around in circles, it actually has meaning, against measures outside the simpler measure of a fun day in the sun.

Brad Stout caught me out at the Sprints, when I said that I was just here for the fun. He commented "Yeah, but its a lot more fun when you are fast." He's right, and the only measure that can be against is with someone who is trying to get to the line before you - officially.

What I found in the driving events is that being fast where it has no real meaning is nice for an occasional day. Still do it in my street toy. But when it really gets to the grease under the nails level, nothing is more fun than having a row with someone who was once faster than you, then leaving them behind, to hunt down the next rabbit. If the rabbits know there is no game, then it looses something. When the rabbit knows you are in it for the blood, then reeling them in brings more to the table than just the driving alone.

So, I guess my point is, have fun on the bike and be safe. When it all gets to be too much of a drive-around, we'll all still be here, ready to chase and be chased!

[vreihen]

But when it really gets to the grease under the nails level, nothing is more fun than having a row with someone who was once faster than you, then leaving them behind, to hunt down the next rabbit. If the rabbits know there is no game, then it looses something. When the rabbit knows you are in it for the blood, then reeling them in brings more to the table than just the driving alone.

I went winless against my "rabbit" for the entire 1990's in autox. He used to take great joy in tormenting me, especially by beating me with my own car during fun runs after the scored event. Long story short, we both bought new cars for 2000, and I beat him at the second event of the season. The best part was that I was on street tires and he was on race rubber, so there was no argument over who was the better driver.

Anyway, you know what they say about racing greyhounds who catch the rabbit. Getting out of bed at 5:00 AM on Sunday mornings to go to an autox became extremely difficult ever since that day.....

[butchdeer]

To me racing has always been about the compitition not the track time. The great thing about the FV class in the past was that with large fields there was always someone to race against and a personal goal to achieve if was winning or moving yourself from the back to the middle to the front. There is a lot of satisfaction finishing 20th in a 50 car field.
Track days can never give you the compitition and if you crave both competition and track time endurance racing may be for you. I see it's biggest drawback as being incredibly expencive compared to sprint racing. All that being said I believe some business run track day and racing venues do a much better job of treating the competitor better than SCCA. In fact the SCCA does a better job in there pro division than most club races as far as making things like registration and tech a process that is mor user frendly to the competitors than club races. The SCCA could learn from these other forms of racing and gain some more comptitors or get some defectors back.
Butch

[brian]

I think everyone has an idea relating to improving turnouts but it starts with the BOD and regional bodies. It's time to rethink the purpose and goal of SCCA and re-engineer the processes to meet that vision. Cost reduction and simplification should be the guiding principles to reinvent SCCA. If we have an annual tech sticker, why do we have to show our helmet every weekend? Why not get an annual tech sticker? Same thing with registration. Why do we have costly conventions that only workers attend? Why does every region have non self sustaining publication? My region's annual loss is $60k on the Wheel.

SCCA should enter a joint venture with a game company and develop a SCCA racing game. If you want to reach the future members, you will have to go where they are. Our internet presence could be greatly improved.

SCCA should take the lead on track days for street cars and stop letting the tracks take all the business. We could provide all the social and racing fun ourselves and maybe make a few bucks in the process.

[vreihen]

Why do we have costly conventions that only workers attend?

So that the people who are clueless about what the drivers really want can provide their input to the National office. As I've said before, DRIVERS need to attend those conventions -- en masse -- if they expect to see any changes. Next year it's Las Vegas just before President's Day weekend in February, if I recall correctly.

Why does every region have non self sustaining publication? My region's annual loss is $60k on the Wheel.

Be thankful that you get a newsletter! My home region hasn't published one since 1997, and we could very well have members with 10-year pins that don't even know the *name* of our region's newsletter.

Last year, I contacted Topeka about this. Since they already have bulk mailing arrangements for Sportscar, I wanted to know why they couldn't provide a similar mailing service...or even insert a region's newsletter into the magazine before they mailed it. It would certainly save some postage! I also asked if they could provide editing services, and possibly a monthly newsletter template with relevant national/divisional news items into which we could plug in our local content and have them print/mail as if we produced the whole thing on our own. I'm not holding my breath for either, even though they both sound like reasonable ideas for services that Topeka should provide for regions who can't do it on their own.

SCCA should take the lead on track days for street cars and stop letting the tracks take all the business.

Download the Time Trial Rules (http://www.scca.com/documents/Club%20Rules/2008TTR.pdf) and see how they continue to shoot themselves in the foot with this one. We actually were going to host one of these events a few years ago, but all of the strings attached and circular rules at the time (did they ever fix them?) made us change our minds.

Is anyone coming with me to rattle the cages in Las Vegas for the convention next year?????

[butchdeer]

Many track days are run by busines people who are in it to make a profit and therefore want there customers(participants) to have a good time and come back again. SCCA regions are dependent on volunteers and are stretched thin to put on the events they have. Many regions rent out there services to other clubs and pro events thus making it hard to get volunteers to work club races. Here in the Il, Wi area local SCCA workers also work a number of Non SCCA events at Road America and Blackhawk making it harder to get workers for regional races. I see unmaned or sparcely manned corners at regionals all the time that I never saw when I was running nationals. How do you propose an SCCA region should get workers to run a track day run on a weekday? Most of our workers have regular jobs and have a hard time getting to the track on a tuesday or wed.
Butch

[vreihen]

How do you propose an SCCA region should get workers to run a track day run on a weekday?

Funny you should mention that, because the answer is to spend money. (I just personally handed the flaggers their payment at our [non-SCCA] club's track day at Pocono last Friday.) There are professional flagging organizations outside of the SCCA who offer these services for a reasonable fee, and I will gladly serve as a reference for the ones that we use every year because they are absolutely top-notch. It might be hard to believe, but they appear to be making a living (or supplementing their retirements) working F&C at track days all over the east coast. Outside of that skilled position, we simply offer discounted or comped entries to people who volunteer to work tech, registration, or as an instructor. We could always use a few more instructors, but otherwise the Solo model of using entrants as workers in the morning has worked extremely well for us every time so far.

In case anyone was wondering how those other organizations can pull it off, NASA is a FOR-PROFIT organization where everyone buys a chapter and runs it like a business. Give the customer what they want, and watch the SCCA's market share erode like it has been recently. Of course, safety can be compromised by well-meaning franchise owners who do stupid things, like set up autox courses with 120 MPH turns and don't require drivers to wear helmets because it might scare potential customers away if they think there's any danger involved. NASA runs even their local chapters like a business, and the SCCA has historically had a mental block whenever they are forced to operate like a business (Pro Racing, Runoffs TV coverage, etc). Sadly, I don't even think that Topeka sees the oncoming train that will ultimately destroy the SCCA, but the very subject of this thread (low turnouts) is almost the handwriting on the wall for our club.....

[Kartgraphix]

Driving events are never run by the track, they are always run by another club, like BMWCCA, SCCA, NASA, ASA, AS, POC, PCA, some vintage group, regional club like the MWCSCC, race schools, or a few barely for profit organization (these come and go like the weather, as there is rarely "profit" in the end.) In almost every case, the costs today are about the same as we all pay here for a double regional or national race. Some run as much as $750 for a one day limited attendance event (I attended one at RA that cost the group $1,350 per person - I was comp'd or would have passed on that one). In any case, today $300-$380 is common, and very very few are under $300 today.

Yes, they pay a few corner workers. They also pay the track for the safety crew, and some demand payment to open the concession. I have been to many HPDE's, they do not put anywhere near the number of corner workers we have the benefit of from volunteers in even a slim regional, and certainly nothing like what is being delivered at a National. Most do not provide the same insurance we have with the SCCA, so you get greater exposure to costs of personal injury, with fewer corner workers, and drive more expeinsive hardware around for no other reason but to enjoy the drive?

Want some really expensive damage? Run a street car, loaded with all the essential street junk, off the track into a tire wall, or back it into a berm. The cost of damage repair will make you wince. I watched a Corvette ZO6 back off into the gravel, tearing off the rear bumper cover, rear trunk floor, and the titanium exhaust system in the process $5,600 later it was back on the street with a Car Fax black mark on it. Saw a Lambo Mecrialogo loose it at Willow, T9, slewed left, then right, then right, then 4 wheel drifted into the pit wall - exploding the carbon chassis on the driver side - totalled by the factory - no insurance for the owner as it was being driven at a "facility intended for the use of competition". Best friend drove his BMW Mcoupe into the desert at Parumph, 10' off the ground through a ditch nose first into the sand. Took three months and $6,100 to put that lease vehicle back on the road to keep the insurance and BMW Leasing from knowing what happened (which they did anyway, and hit him for another $3,300 in "excessive wear and tear" charges at the end of the lease.

The economy of HPDE track days in street cars is not at all what it looks like - especially if you have a bad day, or are fast enough to chew the tires off the car in 3 hours - which is where we are now. The FV is far cheaper for us than those venues are, and more fun to boot!

IMHO: A lot of the grousing against the SCCA is "grass is greener" stuff, that is not well founded. Their are people just as frustrated with those events now, as there are with the SCCA.

There is a lot to be improved everywhere, always has been, always will be. Karting started in Califormia in 1958, when a group of SCCA racers decided sports car racing was getting too expensive, causing them to seek cheaper ways to go play. FV was formed in 1963, for exactly the same set of reasons. Wanting cheaper fees and more time on the track is a universal desire, always has been.

I do not doubt costs are a part of the slow down in attendance, but that pressure has always been there. I beleive there are more forces at work against motor-sport right now, that all the cost cutting and rules juggling will not resolve in the slightest, resulting in a zero-sum gain, if not worse.

[Deacon Blues]

[quote="Kartgraphix"]This is why solving problems from within any organization facing a decline in participation never works. If you race now, you don't really know why those who once did are gone. What racers now want as racers to improve their interest is actually almost totally irrelevant. What is really needed is a committee made up of non-members and rfecently departed members, who are no longer active, but are still somewhat interested in the sport... they are the ones that should be heard, and listened to, they are the ones that need to be pulled back in.

This is why I responded to this post. I am one of those interested but have left. Now you have a fairly negative post saying that the grass isn't greener. This isn't what I said in the first place. I tried to show that there is plenty of competition for my motorsports dollars and that I found what I thought was a better value for my dollar. I got into vees because of large feilds and relatively low cost. Both of those have gone. I love vees and have had some of my best times in a Vee. I would love to see it flourish again, but I don't see anything changing to make it so. I am not selling my car hoping that I can get back in for some of the reasons I did in the first place.

Steve