Low turnouts

[butchdeer]

In the past Hoosier has made a hard compound tire that would hold up for 20 or so heat cycles. They called it the VROCK coumpound because a groupe of regional racers in the rocky mountain division asked for it and built a regional series aroud it. Other people also used it for its durability and some drivers who liked to slide their cars even used it in nationals with some success. The Rocky mountain regional series fell apart aafter a few years and demand for the tires dropped to the piont Hoosier quit making them. Hoosier has told me they would make a similar vee tire again if they could sell one batch a year. A batch is about 100 tires so with fronts and rears you would need to gaurantee a sale of 25 sets of tires per year for them to make them. All it would take for a group of Regioal racers to get a series together where they would buy the original 25 sets of tires and require them in there series. Anyone who shows up with an otherwise legal SCCA car simply would not be counted in series points.
Butch

[OhioMark]

Brian:

Thanks for the reply. Is the Goodyear 430 the equivalent of the AR's and Hoosier 55's or a harder compound? Also, how many heat
cycles can you get on the AR's if managed properly etc............

Mark

[FV80]

Mark,
The GY 430 is NOT the equivalent. GY approx equiv would be the 600 compound. The 430 is a 'current' (actually last year) vintage national level tire. Not sure what the production status is of 600's, but you can check with Eric in SEDIV (CompTire South) or any of the other GY distributors in the various parts of the country.

Steve

[hardingfv32-1]

AR's are as soft a Hoosier R55's, but no where as fast. They have absolutely no side wall stiffness and thus suffer from a lack of contact patch control. The price is the only thing going for the AR's.

Spec tire proponents: Do you move to the front of the pack on those occasions when you have fresh tires? Spec tires are not going to solve your performance issues.

If the Reg supps call for a spec tire WITHOUT a Spec Vee class, then technically you can not race your otherwise SCCA legal Vee. I have unsuccessfully protested this situation.

Brian

[OhioMark]

Brian:

I'm a little confused by your last paragraph? Please expand on what you meant by it. The way I see it and the FST
class has confirmed it, is that you can reduce costs by introducing a tire that lasts 15-20 heat cycles rather than a
current tire that lasts 6-10 heat cycles and they can race all year on one set of tires. If a driver wants to buy tires
before they're used up, then it's their prorogative to do so but it will only provide a couple tenth's per lap if we
use the FST times as a comparison. I think most regional drivers will be more budget conscience rather than time
conscience at the track. If money was no problem, they would probably consider running nationals where the budgets
are much larger etc.....Let me know what you meant per your last post.

Thanks!

Mark

[FVartist]

The SF Region has a spec tire rule that can be found here http://www.sfrscca.org/images/2008/Road ... ppregs.pdf page 4 item 7 and 8. These tires can last 20 cycles and cost about $400 a set. Blake Tatum set this up in our region and got the signatures of the FV driver's and presented it to the Region board. That was after he got A/R on board.

We have a gentleman's agreement here that if you are going to run other tires during qualifying or the race, the driver has the obligation to inform the grid worker's so that their times and finishing position will not count. We are self policing and are on the honor system.

[Bill_Bonow]

Spec tire proponents: Do you move to the front of the pack on those occasions when you have fresh tires? Spec tires are not going to solve your performance issues.

Brian,

I may be incorrect, but I don't think this thread has anything to do with "performance issues" and more to do with how to increase FV entries.

However, I'll take the bait. The answer to your question is no, they don't. The fast guys will always be up front with whatever tires they are running. New tires don't make you a better driver. You may ask, "How can you make such a statement as fact?" as an answer, I'd say that we (FSTer's) have been 6 years running with close to 400 race entries all of which were raced with a spec hard compound tire and we have plenty of results to back up that "no" answer.

As a method of cutting weekend racing cost, spec tires have done exactly what we (FSTer's) wanted. One set of tires will go 20 to 25 heat cycles or a typical season of regional club racing without performance change. In our situation, new tires each event is not going to increase performance and in my opinion is a huge waste of racing budget for the weekend club racer.

To get this thread back on the track:

Mark,

Hoosier will most likely make "VROC" (R 60) compound tires if someone can get 25 sets (100 tires) sold. That is the hardest compound made by Hoosier. I may be wrong, but I don't think Goodyear offers the 600 compound in FV tires. AR's are low cost, but everything I have heard is that they don't last near as long as the VROC's did.

One thing to remember, hard compound tires (like the Hoosier VROC) will be slower as the car will slide more in corners rather than stick. This is a general statement as a few guys actually won Nationals on VROC's. So, just remember that typically a hard compound tire equals slower lap times.

Personally (read my .02), I think the lack of a spec tire in FV is a valid reason in causing low entry levels, but it is not the sole reason or even the predominant reason. It's just another straw on the camel's back. Of course, my view point may be just a little bit biased

Bill

[hardingfv32-1]

So if your not concerned about tire performance, then why not run more than 8-10 heat cycles. Is it unsafe?

The SFR Stewards are not aware nor would they recognize any gentleman's agreement concerning the use of AR tires. It must be stated in the supps.

Brian

[brian]

Mark, the new 430 was introduced at the sprints and I have no knowledge about their performance. The 430 is close to the 55. Reviewing the current catalogs show 420's which have been replaced with the 430's, on GY and the 45b and 55b for Hoosier. Sounds like someone could get 60's made but I would suspect it would be nearly impossible to get GY to make any kind of special run.

I can get about 8 cycles out of either the Hoosiers or AR's. Admittedly, the tires are not race suitableat over 6 cycles, but can be used for testing and practice. I can race up to 4 cycles and qualify up to 6 or 7 cycles on Hoosers. I always scrub new tires in on a practice, I rotate side to side every session, run about 1 psi higher than most, and I do not race on stickers. As the previso states; "your results may vary". I am not an agressive driver and my car is very compliant by design. I'm not an engineer and rely on intuition mostly oh ya, and 31 years of mistakes. There are some cars out there that have virtually no suspension and I would think their demand on tires will be higher.

As was mentioned, working with the local region and getting buy-in from everyone in the class to insulate the region board, will go a long way to get a spec tire. The supplemental regulations will have to outlne the program. I have used a regional weekend for testing and practice, just started at the back of the pack and pulled off on the next to last lap.
On a regional basis it is very doable since most regions are suffering a bit and will be open to expanding entries.

[Mystique Racing]

As I said in my other post back on page 5, I am currently on my 13th heat cycle on my AR's. The 10th cycle I qual P1, the 11 cycle I won the race, the 12th cycle I qual P2. The 13th cycle I was in second place and had a little incident with the leader which ended my race. My point is that the AR's are holding up very well and I have not yet seen any degradation of performance in either lap times, or on the data analysis, after 13 heat cycles. The AR's may not be the tire that the Hoosier is, however, It seems to be working very well out here in the SF Region. I have not heard of any complaints regarding tire performance from the local FV drivers.

[OhioMark]

Scott:

What agreement &/or rules do you have in place out in the SF Region regarding tires? Also, has the cost of the AR's
fluctuated since your move towards them and are there any complaints about the use of those tires? One more
question, did you consider other tires before electing to go with the AR's?

Thanks!

Mark

[FVartist]

Mark,

Read my previous post for rules. The A/R's were selected mainly for their cost and durability. Performance was a secondary concern, as everyone was going to use the same tires. We originally used a softer compound, but swirched to the one we now use for durabilty. This keeps the cost down, longer lasting tires. We have been doing this for almost 10 years now.

Bruce

[OhioMark]

Bruce:

How did you handle drivers that arrived from regions that normally didn't use the AR's and were only making
a one time appearance to the track? I assumed you let them race but didn't count them in the points
championship if you had one etc.....Thanks!

mark

[FVartist]

Mark,

Driver's that do not want to run the A/R's are gridded at the back for the race. They do not receive points, they are scored as completing the race, but are moved to the bottom of the result, Qualifing times are disallowed. However most know our use of the A/R's as they use them too. VARA in Southern California and Conference in Washingtom and Oregon. We did offer to buy anyone's tires from them at the end of the weekend for half price, but no one ever took us up on the offer.

Bruce

[96vee]

new track opened in nj. first scca race (regional)was this week end. turnout, 1 vee.? i came to help out ,where i could, my reason for not racing,injury .i met 2 other vee drivers in attendance. my friend doug runs the marrs series ,but still came with friends to see the track and support friends running the weekend. . i met one national driver,owner of the vandecar of years past. he was crewing for am friend and really only runs races at the new hampshire track close to his home.if i had to quess where everybody else was i'd bet the combo of heat ,fuel cost and location kept them away .bill c.96vee

[twofoot]

The new track in NJ opened? And hosted an SCCA event? I did not know that. It seems we need to open our mouths to be heard as well if we are going to grow this sport we love. I live about an hour and change from the new track, and I would have certainly packed the kids up in the Pilot to go see some fun if I had known.

So what should be done to "advertise" how great we all are and how much fun we are having? It can be a double edged sword, and I personally wonder if it will help or hurt the sport. We know every kid with a souped up Z28 or Subaru or whatever thinks he's <insert current boring F1 driver's name here> when he's out and about your local city streets with his cherry bomb muffler buzzing away. We need to interest adults into trying out our sport. They can actually afford it, and might have more than a lick or two of sense inside their helmets when it comes to responsible driving. They will also be more willing to make sacrifices and realize they won't be on the podium their first race weekend. Add a lot of "raging teenagers" to the current on-track mix and I know a lot of "old timers" would be the first to put her back on the trailer or close the garage door for good because ALL of the fun would be gone.

Just wondering out loud..

Chris =)

[SR Racing]

So what should be done to "advertise" how great we all are and how much fun we are having? It can be a double edged sword, and I personally wonder if it will help or hurt the sport. We know every kid with a souped up Z28 or Subaru or whatever thinks he's <insert current boring F1 driver's name here>

I don't think "beggars can be choosers" We need racers.. I think the cost of racing will filter out some of the young kids, but those that come up through karts, etc. probably are mature enough to drive FV. We ran the old USAC 2000 Pro (FC) series and it was mostly kids from 18 to 25 and they seemed to be fine with a few exceptions. And by the end of the season they had figured it out.

Actually considering the current age, eyesight, hearing and reflexes of us current drivers, it might be better.

Jim

[Frank]

The two problems with getting young guys racing are cost and the work required. Its alot of work to prepare a Vee especially if you crash it even once. Not to mention the work and time required to get to a race, a tow vechile and trailer are expensive too. Most guys my age would rather throw an intake, exhaust, and springs on a car and just do a track day. Its easier that way. I'd say i work on the car 5-10 hours a week during the season, most people just don't want to do that.

[fvkartguy]

I'm a 21 year old who moved up from karts to FV...
While I'd like to see a much better turnout at races, I've gotta agree with Chris on this one. I think the SCCA does need to advertise to older drivers...
but NOT because us kids don't have 'lick or two of sense' (some of us do). Although I do hate those jerk-offs with the cherry bomb mufflers too, they just like to pretend to be <insert current boring F1 driver's name here> on the street and wouldn't ever make the effort to actually become that person on the track.
I agree with Chris's point that adults will be able to afford FV and make the sacrifices. I've been running FV for five years now (I got the 'member since YYYY' patch last week) and I'm still not up front, but I didn't expect to be. I bought a school car to get experience and put whatever money I could into it (maybe I'll be closer to the front this season!). FV's aren't that expensive (compared to other racecars), but they're way too expensive for a kid. The only kids who can really afford to go racing are the ones whose daddies pay for all their equipment. However, if daddy's footing the bill... why go with an FV? Those kids are probably going with something bigger and faster!!
The few kids who are going to be willing to make the sacrifices to race are going to do their research and find out about FV through the older people (I did). So I think advertising to older people might even have a 'trickle-down' effect!

[SR Racing]

The only kids who can really afford to go racing are the ones whose daddies pay for all their equipment. However, if daddy's footing the bill... why go with an FV? Those kids are probably going with something bigger and faster!!

If the market is mostly "older" people, then that is the place to put most of the advertising. But we need to hit the full potential racer group. And if it's daddy footing the bill, who cares? Today the kart kids get fliers from all the Formula car venues and schools. But nothing from the SCCA. The kids may be going bigger and faster becuase they have the money. However, we see lots of kids in here who have never heard of FV/FST. But they have heard lots about all the other wing'ed venues. If pop thought he could have the same fun for 1/4 the price (and was aware of FV/FST) he might be interested in that.

If their plan is to break into Formula One etc. (and some think that is a goal) Vee ain't the place anyway.

I would advertise to the 8 to 80 crowd.

Jim

[twofoot]

I'm curious why in the UK and Australia Formula Vee has such a good spread of ages for its drivers. There are plenty of young people and plenty of old timers in the mix. Here in the states, it seems like only the "over-40" crowd have any lasting interest in the class.

Why is that? Is it the rules? The cars themselves? Or is it a cultural thing?

Cheers,

Chris

[SR Racing]

I think a couple reasons...

One, the Aussies are race crazy. If it moves and they have 2 of them, they will race them.
Probably due to the above their racing gets a lot more promotion. Many of their races are on local TV. (and not at 2:AM on the Speed Channel)

There may be other reasons. Cost? Track Locations? Maybe one of the guys from down under will give us more info.

Jim

[Bill_Bonow]

I don't know the UK crowd very well, but I've gotten to be very good email pals with the Aussie's and the Kiwi's. The biggest difference between us and them is in the sanctioning bodies. Both CAMS (AUS) and Motorsport NZ have charged the racers to be in the majority control of their own fate with their own "class club" found here: http://www.fvee.org.au/ and http://www.formulafirst.co.nz/ The racers control what needs to be done (with CAMS or Motorsport NZ approval) to keep the class strong/growing. In addition the sanctioning body promotes the hell out of FV 1600/Formula First as the starting rung on the formula car ladder. This includes assistance in marketing events on TV and other media. In this regard, SCCA completely and totally sucks.

I know you guys don't want to hear this, but both Australia and New Zealand have upgraded rules to the point that Formula First in the USA is a very close clone of the Australian FV 1600 rules and the New Zealand cars originated the name Formula First (for our application, not from the UK disaster of the mid 80's). In Australia, In 2002, CAMS passed a rule that stated no new FV 1200 cars will be homologated as the class was dying off. The FVA had to come up with new car or rules package. FV 1600 was what they came up with and now they have grids like this (below) at every event. According to my Aussie mates, FV has never been stronger in Australia.

[ external image ]

FV 1200 cars are still legal and have a state (regional) championship, but only make up about 10% to 15% of a typical grid.

Bill

[DanRemmers]

On the topic of marketing to the young crowd:

In the solo area, a few years back they added a bunch of street tire classes in order to attract the young tuner crowd who had bigger wheels and a few other mods on their cars. I was against it at first, but it turned out to be a great thing for solo. It brought in (and still does) lots of the kids with tuner cars. Many of them don't fit into the racing crowd and quit after 1 or 2 events, but a small percentage stay. Those are the drivers the SCCA needs--they are totally into cars, racing, & competition, they like working on their own cars, improving, tweaking, & learning. And since they're young, they are on a budget, and they will stay in the club for decades.

I don't know if someone has hard statistics about this, but I've noticed that solo is a good stepping stone to road racing that many people have taken. (Of course, *I* haven't taken that step, but that's another issue.)

[twofoot]

Bill those are some interesting links to our NZ and Aussie friends. Great websites full of useful information. Downloadable races, interviews with drivers. Jeez! This should be our guide to what's the "right thing" to do. The SCCA is a grade school science project compared to them.

As for their rules... I don't think dividing our already shrinking group into 1200 and 1600 factions is the right choice. The 1200cc folks have too much already invested to make the switch. We would likely lose even more drivers to other classes or they would leave racing entirely. I think our focus needs to be on growing what we already have, not diluting things further.

Decisions, decisions!

Chris