Inner Beam bushings - Height adjuster

[BLS]

Following the directions for tool making (search is my friend!) I succesfully and easily removed the needle bearings from the beam I'm building up. I have found micarta inner bearings for sale at Cip1 that require reaming to fit. Expensive at $15 each, but if I need them... How do you check if they are worn and need replacement? I have inserted a trailing arm in (without the now removed needle bearing) and it feels tight as you push it in place but it will wiggle back and forth without the outer bearing to stabilize it. There doesn't seem to be any play but I'm not sure how to check. Search seems to indicate they can be removed and rotated (Brian Harding I think) as they tend to wear on one side where they are loaded. What are the recommendations?

Is there any consesus on the location of the spring pack, upper or lower? I had them in the upper on the old car and figure I would leave them there. However, if I install the height adjuster the steering box would have to move as it would not clear. The most likely car this beam will end up on will not have the steering box located on the beam so it is not an issue. However, is there any reason why the springs should be located top or bottom? Also, anyone ever use the "avis" style height adjuster? It would have a bit more clearance I think.

Thanks,
Barry

[BLS]

I reinserted trailing arms in the beam on the car to check for any wear on the inner beam bushings, the micarta type. This is a needle bearing beam on the outer end. The left side seems to have a significant amount of play Vs the right side, both the upper and lower. As I press the trailing arm in the direction force would be placed on it in a turn, or in the vertical direction the weight of the car puts on the trailing arms, there is definetly some movement. I did not check this on the spare beam I am working on prior to removing the needle bearings so I'm not sure how good those are. I guess I will reinstall the needle bearings and check these as well.

Cip1 has micarta bearings for the beam. I would have to buy an expandable reamer to fit these and I found a reasonably priced one at about $50 that should work. New micarta bushings plus the reamer is $110. I cannot find any inner polyurethane bushings, just replacements for inner and outer as one piece. I suppose I could get those and cut off a section to use as the inner. However, as I read the rules I'm not sure polyurethane is allowable. Also, I'm not sure if the polyurethane would stay in place properly if a section was cut off to replace the inner micarta. Perhaps the polyurethane would need fitting as well.

I'm also assuming that you ream the micarta to fit each individual trailing arm even though they are supposed to be all the same diameter. Of course there is some wear. If I ream these to fit, before they are installed in the beam, would they compress slightly as the outside of the bushing is compressed by the beam tube? Must they be reamed in place?

Any thoughts on this would certainly be welcome.

Thanks,
Barry

[FV80]

Barry,
First off, I'm interested in the tool you used to get the needle bearings out. I tried to get a set out once myself and was quite UNsuccessful - but I didn't have a specialized tool for doing it. What did you use?

Secondly- I suspect the reason no one has replied to your first post is that no one has ever DONE what you are doing. I have never replaced a Micarta bushing in all my years of racing Vees. I have never found one worn enough to justify it. What I HAVE found is the inner bushings pushed too deep into the tube to contact the trailing arm. Driving it back into place solved my problem. As for reaming them - I've never heard of it being done - perhaps others have.

There is a dimple in the beam tubes that holds the inner bushing in place. In one case several years ago, I had a set of bushings that just would NOT stay in place. I finally drilled and tapped a hole at the proper place and installed a screw through the beam to contact the bushing and hold it - it worked fine. IIRC, I also got one of those full poly bushings and cut an appropriate sized piece and installed it in a beam some years ago. Since those bushings come 'stock' installed in some of the aftermarket beams, I never considered the legality issue of it. I've never actually SEEN one, but I THINK that all of the non-needle bearing beams have that type of full length poly bushings.

As for the free play, you don't say HOW MUCH free play you have, but I think the front end would tolerate "some". You obviously don't want the outer end of the trailing arm moving more than, say 1/8". Any more than that would require some fixing I'd think. All of the trailing arms I have seen (that weren't BENT) had very repeatable measurements on the bearing surfaces. I could not see any reason to have to ream the bushings to each arm independently - nor have I ever seen a tool to ream them ... but that's possibly because I've never looked <g>. My biggest concern about having free play would be the REASON there is movement - I've not seen a micarta bushing wear enough to be an issue - maybe I've bent too many beams in my career to ever get that far along in wear <VBG>, but I always figured that if a junkyard beam with 150,000 miles on it didn't show appreciable wear, then I would NEVER have to worry about it.

Edit - Spring pack - it shouldn't make any difference in function or performance which beam holds the spring pack. However, MOST people put the springs in the bottom and the sway bar in the top because it makes it MUCHO easier to change the sway bar if you want/need to.

As for the Avis adjuster - I'm not familiar with it, so can't help you there. I wasn't aware there was more than one type. If it works, though, ....
Steve, FV80

[BLS]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. And I sorta figured this might not be the most common of topics after searching. Not a lot of results but one that pointed me in the right direction to make the tool for needle bearing removal. Dietmar had suggested a flat piece of steel, ground on the ends to the bearing outer radius and someone else, Brian Harding I think, mentioned using a washer in a similar fashion. I used something round I had on hand that was just a hair too small and it failed, damaging the race of the needle bearing in the process. So, after measuring, I went to Lowes and got a 1.75 inch round washer that is pretty thick, about 1/8 inch. I then ground two flats opposite of each other that would allow the washer to pass through the inner diameter of the bearing. Using a 1/4 bolt through the much larger hole with a couple of smaller washers as backing allows you to slide it through the bearing and then pull it up flat against the inner surface. Tapping from the opposite side with a long enough tube and the bearing comes out very easily. The 1 3/4 washer is a perfect fit and will work with the inner bushing as well I'm sure. I just have to get a longer bolt, 10 inches or so to reach through the bushing. Picture below.

The inner bushings in both beams I have are in the correct place. What I found after checking is the left side has much more movement then the right, very noticeable. It is close to 1/8, perhaps a hair more with just a reasonable amount of push from my hand. I checked it in the directions of force and that is where the wear is. In other directions it is much less. The right side is much better. I do think it is a problem that needs to be fixed. I cannot say what the effect is on the track. This is the way it was when last raced. And, my car handled well. I was not getting beat in the turns, just down those long straights. So, maybe it is better to be worn, but I don't think so.

The replacement Micarta bushings do require reaming according to sales notation. I found them at Cip1, link: http://www2.cip1.com/ProductDetails.asp ... D401%2D315

They are expensive at $15 each, thus the question about the polyurathane. I think I might give that a try if it seems legal. From what I've read, the non needle bearing beams had a micarta bushing in the end and a micarta bushing inner from VW. I've never seen a non needle bearing beam and did not know VW made them both ways.

Thanks again, any information helps. Dietmar has been kind enough to respond as well.
Barry

The picture shows the ground washer and an unground one beside it for reference.

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[Dietmar]

Barry:

Glad the "tool" worked. I have found that a second pair of hands holding the bolt helps while the other pair of hands drives the rod from the other end. (Maybe you have extra hands). The one I "made" is about 1/2" thick and eliminates the need for the other washers.

other comments:

If the inner bushing has slipped, one can drive it back and then use a center punch around the beam. Found that 10 or so at different locations will hold the bushing in place.
I have only had to replace 2 or 3 innner bushings in my lifetime- most had fallen apart or were baked when someone had the beam powder coated and failed to mention to the powdercoater the fact that there were bushings inside. Using "used" bushings eliminated the need to ream.
I personally do not like the poly bushings- never had much success with them- either out of round or too small an i.d once installed. They are held in place with the grease fitting.

Any other "issues" - you know where/how to reach me.

Dietmar
http://www.quixoteracing.com

[BLS]

Thanks Dietmar,

I did have an extra set of hands, my son held the tool while I tapped the needle bearing out. I forgot to mention that.

None have slipped so that is not an issue. I will check the spare beam today. I'll have to reinstall the needle bearings but that is OK. Hopefully it is better than the one on the car. The left side on the car is clearly worn to some degree. How much it hurts I'll never know. But, I do want to start with it being as near perfect as I can get it.

Good point on the polyurethane. I was wondering what would happen once they were inserted, would they become tighter. I think your experience answers that. I'll stick with the micarta and buy the reamer if I have to use any new ones. It's not that bad, just dollars. Hopefully I can get at least four good micarta bushings from the eight I have, with at least two bad ones.

Thanks for the help. It is very much appreciated.
Barry

[sabre1]

Barry,

I recently tried to purchase some of those bushings pictured from CIP1. Apparently those that are pictured are no longer available - I ordered 8 of those and got 1 that looked like the picture and 3 others that were slightly different. The different ones were narrower, had a larger ID, and no lubrication grooves. Per CIP1, these don't require reaming. I have not tried to do this operation yet as I need to check my beam more carefully; but suspect I will, as I have some play in the control arm. I will know in a week or so.

The tool you made to remove the needle bearing is exactly what I am planning to make.

You mentioned finding an inexpensive adjustable reamer; where did you find that? Hopefully I won't be needed one, but just in case, could you share where you found it?

Thanks.

-Jim

[cendiv37]

Just a couple comments to add to the general discussion.

1. I've seen play in the trailing arms of old junk yard beams, but much of it was due to wear in the arm itself, accompanied by some wear in the bushing. I suspect this is due to a lack of maintenance on the beam (seldom or never greased) during it's former life as a street car. I cannot image ever wearing out a bushing in race use, at least not before I bend the beam . The wear in the trailing arms is/was both visible and measurable.

2. I have removed (and replaced) a number of inner bushings and did so with a tool I made very similar to what you have made. However, I used a long piece of threaded rod so it can reach behind the inner bushing and I made mine into a puller by fabricating a U-shaped bracket that seats against the shock tower flanges with a hole in it for the threaded rod (in the base of the "U"). This makes it a one man job if nothing else. If you make one, make sure you make the legs of the U bracket long enough that you can get the bushing/bearing all the way out before it hits the base of the U. The toughest part is to get the washer to "flip" after inserting it through the bushing so it seats properly against the back side of the bushing. If it doesn't seat properly it will damaged the bushing as it is pulled out.

3. I have never tried any of the "ream in place" bushings though I have a set made of "Delrin" (I think). I prefer to install good used bushings if I have them. Before I throw out a damaged beam, I always salvage the bushings and bearings for possible future use.

[BLS]

Jim,

The link to the reamer: http://www.zorotools.com/g/Adjustable%2 ... /00059514/
It doesn't go directly to the reamer but to the page it can be selected from. Under "item" choose "adjustable hand reamer", then under "fractional size" select 1-11/32 - 1-1/2. Down below it should show a list with this one highlighted, part # G2798905, price $55.19. I think it will be fine for reaming micarta.

Interesting regarding Cip1 and the bushings you received. I'll check before I order and see what they will ship. Thanks.


Bruce,

My trailing arms appear to be good as all check the same diameter and look good. This is old stuff, but unused for some 30 years. It all came out of a couple bugs I purchased for parts way back when. The bushings in this beam were probably worn when I got them as this beam was only used a couple years as I recall. I destroyed the first beam and car along with it. And I wasn't smart enough to remove the bearings and bushings from the bent beam.

The "U" bracket is a good idea. I actually thought about it but wasn't patient enough to fabricate it.

Thanks,
Barry

[BLS]

I have now put the needle bearings back in the spare beam to test the fit compared to the beam on the car. Wow! No comparison. The spare beam has zero play, yet the trailing arm rotates freely. It's even better than the right side of the beam on the car which I thought was probably OK judging by the left side. So, clearly I think, the beam on the car will need new inner bushings before use. I'm going to leave the ones in the spare beam in place and build that beam as originally planned.

I know I was dumb in my 20's. Did not realize just how dumb. I am actually very suprised at how much play the trailing arms have in the beam on the car. Maybe it doesn't make that much difference but it sure seems like it should. I'm positive I'll be much faster now...

Thanks for your help,
Barry

[sabre1]

Barry,

Thanks for the link to the reamer.

-Jim

[BLS]

Jim, you're welcome.

I emailed cip1 about the bushings. So far no response.

[BLS]

As an update, the tool I made has an issue. It removed the needle bearings without any problem as described above. However, not content to leave well enough alone, I decided to remove the inner micarta bushings just to check them and be certain of what I am working with. First, while the 1.75 inch washer as described appeared to worked fine on the needle bearings, it could potentially damage them. The 1.75 inch washer diameter is slightly larger than the unturned portion of the beam where the needle bearing sits. So, it first starts at a slight angle until it pushes out far enough to get to the turned portion of the outer beam. I did not notice this until I tried to insert in the beam to use it to remove an inner bushing. So, after grinding the flats, grind just a little of the remaining diameter to fit the beam. This will allow the washer to start out perfectly flat against the bearing. If it is at a slight angle, initially the force is pressing on a smaller area of the needle bearing and could do some damage. Didn't hurt mine but I thought I would update for anyone that tries this.

After grinding the outside down slightly to fit the inner unturned portion of the beam, the "tool" still would not go through the bushing. Since I ground the flats until it would fit through the needle bearing I did not understand this since they are basically the same diameter. What happens is the tool will slide through between the needles slightly, which is a larger diameter. So, I had to grind the flats just a bit more to slide through the bushing.

Rather than hammering out the bushing like I did the bearings, I used a puller to pull the bushing out. As soon as the bushing gets to the turned portion of the beam it falls right out, so a flat surface against the outside of the beam works OK. Later, I will make a "U" bracket as Jim describes instead of using the hammer.

Since the beam on the car definetly needs new bushings, I think I will put new ones in the beam I'm building up and use these used ones in the beam on the car. The bushings do show some wear in the direction the trailing arm will press when under cornering loads. I've marked the bottom of the bushing so that I can turn it 90 degree's in the next beam, to a less worn portion of the bushing at the point of force.

Picture of the bushing:

[ external image ]

[BLS]

Jim,

Regarding your inner bushings, you may have gotten some for the ball joint beam. These are slightly larger, smooth bore, and no reaming. I've spent a fair amount of time reading the Samba website that has quite a bit of info. Urethane is not highly thought of. I also found another, less expensive source for the micarta replacement bushings at $12.

http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/Detai ... =111401315

I think I'll order a set and see what I get. If it's wrong i'll return them. If not I'll get the reamer and give it a whorl.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

I went ahead and ordered the micarta bushings from Cip1. SInce I've been out of the country for a couple weeks I was just now am able to check them. First, like Jim's experience, they are not the parts pictured but appear to be the bushings for a ball joint beam possibly. They are larger OD and ID by about 12thousands or so. They are not the "requires reaming" type as advertised. The bag has two part numbers, one is the one listed for the correct part, the other on the reverse side is incorrect. They are a looser fit than the used ones I removed, plus they are really too big OD to fit the beam. I'll return these and find out if the correct ones are available. They appear the same as those pictured for a ball joint beam. Cip1 never returned a response to my email.

The quality also appears very poor. Smooth in some places and rough in others.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

An update on the inner bushings from Cip1. After speaking with their customer service rep and emailing pictures of what I received and expected, plus pointing out the pictures and descriptions in their catalog, they believe they have the problem solved. They told me they got the stock confused and were shipping the wrong item. Today they shipped out new bushings that are supposed to be the correct ones. No charge for the shipping and they said to keep the incorrect bushings. It did take them a few days to figure out what went wrong but they have done the correct thing. Hopefully the correct bushings have been shipped. I will make one more update when they get here just to complete this thread for anyone that has this issue in the future.

Barry

[jstoezel]

Hi there:

Do you have an update on this? I'm interested as a few bushings are damaged on my beam.

Thanks,
Jean

An update on the inner bushings from Cip1. After speaking with their customer service rep and emailing pictures of what I received and expected, plus pointing out the pictures and descriptions in their catalog, they believe they have the problem solved. They told me they got the stock confused and were shipping the wrong item. Today they shipped out new bushings that are supposed to be the correct ones. No charge for the shipping and they said to keep the incorrect bushings. It did take them a few days to figure out what went wrong but they have done the correct thing. Hopefully the correct bushings have been shipped. I will make one more update when they get here just to complete this thread for anyone that has this issue in the future.

Barry

[brian]

I mentioned before that delron bushings are available in Hot VW magazine. They will require some fitting but are one piece for inner and outer support. There may be an issue of plastic bushing vs needle bearing, but I have seen them used with great success. Now that being said, we may hear from the vee committee regarding the legality of the delrons.

[BLS]

Jean, yes, sorry I meant to update this.

I received the replacements from Cip1 and they are the correct items. They must be reamed to fit which is what I wanted. I have yet to install them as I'm rarely here these days. I'll be going out of the country Monday for the remainder of Nov. Hopefully when I return I'll have time to get everything put back together.

If you order and do not get the right ones, email Megan at Cip1 and she should be able to get it corrected. ( megan@cip1.com ).

I'll try to remember to update this thread when I get the bushings done.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

Brian, apparently VW made some beams with a bushing instead of the needle bearings in the outer position, not one piece like the delron you refer to, but the same inner micarta bushing and an outer micarta as well. I've never seen a beam like that, but then I have not looked at a lot of beams. In my research I found reference to it. I considered using delron, cutting them for the inner part, but found a lot of negative feedback about them. I don't recall what the problem was, just decided to stay away from them.

[jstoezel]

Hi Barry:

Thanks for the update. Have you tried reaming the bushings yet? Is it doable with the reamer you found?

Jean

Jean, yes, sorry I meant to update this.

I received the replacements from Cip1 and they are the correct items. They must be reamed to fit which is what I wanted. I have yet to install them as I'm rarely here these days. I'll be going out of the country Monday for the remainder of Nov. Hopefully when I return I'll have time to get everything put back together.

If you order and do not get the right ones, email Megan at Cip1 and she should be able to get it corrected. ( megan@cip1.com ).

I'll try to remember to update this thread when I get the bushings done.

Regards,
Barry

[BLS]

Jean, no I haven't tried it yet. Need more time...

I expect to do it when I return, sometime in Dec. I'll post my results when I'm done.

Barry

[brian]

I believe the double bushing h-beams were Brazilian after market. The delron replacements are generally used in off road applications and need to be clearenced for our use since they are a bit tight when new.

[BLS]

Brian, that could be the case, Brazilian. I read several accounts by the off road guys that the delron would deform under load, something like that anyway.

[BLS]

I expect to do it when I return, sometime in Dec. I'll post my results when I'm done.

Update:

A little late. I've been pretty quiet for a long time. Work slowed things down. And then last year in June a family tragedy brought everything to a standstill. I have worked on the car at times but my heart was not in it for many months. But I'm back and working on the car again. So, regarding the bushings - I finished the welding on the beam, added adjusters for ride height and the Citation steering bellcrank mounts. Time to (finally) install the bushings and get them fitted. I put the first bushing in the beam, started reaming (see pic) and it went well. I snuck up on the size until I had a good fit to the torsion arm. I then installed a second and reamed it. Then thought maybe I should install a needle bearing and check it. NO GO. The reaming left me off center and once the needle bearing was installed the torsion arm would not align with the bushing without further reaming which would make it useless. In order to ream these things properly it is going to require something to hold the reamer to the centerline of the beam bore. I may make something later but don't have the time now. So, I thought I would put the old bushings back in this beam which were OK compared to the beam that came off the old Zink. If you read my earlier comments you will find that CIP1 originally sent me the wrong set of bushings. They were not the ream to fit type and the OD was larger than the ones which came out of the beam (an original VW taken off a bug some 30 years ago). When I started installing the old bushings I discovered they were a very loose fit in the bore. Per Dietmar's suggestion I could have installed and used a center punch to keep them in position. They were so loose that they would slip. That got me thinking, maybe the first set sent me were actually OK to use. Measuring the OD again they are larger than the original's, but slightly smaller than the ream to fit ones. Hmm. So, I put one in and it fits very well. The torsion arm has a very nice fit, no play but free movement. The top ones anyway. I installed all four. The bottom beam fit but was a bit tight. This is because when I welded the new Citation steering mounts I must have distorted the tube slightly. I used the reamer to just clean them up a bit and the fit is excellent.

So, the ream to fit needs more "tooling" or perhaps a better operator The other type are easy to install and fit nearly perfect. There is absolutely no play but the arms rotate freely

Picture shows the reaming operation. Maybe had I been thinking I could have held the centerline better, but I think it will be hard to do. The bushings are fairly soft and the reamer gets off pretty easily. Of the two I did, I could have gotten by on one of them maybe. If you look closely you can see my new floorpan, a CM steel (.063) pan, curved to drop me 1 inch in the car. At 6'4 I really need the room... That was a project. A lot of hours making the curved bulkhead attachements and fitting the pan, then welding in small increments. I'm certainly not an expert or speedy fabricator, but I must have 100+ hours in that floorpan. It runs from the front to under my butt. The fuel cell back is aluminium. It adds about 7 pounds over the original .090 Al pan that I'll make up with some other lighter stuff. I hope it is a real speed secret...

Regards,
Barry

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